EP 16: Carla Raines’ Allegations (Part 2 of 2)
HAVE A COMMENT, QUESTION, CONCERN OR JUST A SHOUTOUT? CALL AND LEAVE A MESSAGE ON OUR PODCAST HOTLINE. YOU MAY HAVE YOUR MESSAGE INCLUDED IN AN UPCOMING EPISODE OR SHARED VIA SOCIAL MEDIA….. (405) 466-5622
Official Police, and Private Investigator Reports/Notes (redacted) Below:
OKC Police Investigative Photos
Below is a 360° photo take by private investigator Brian Bates of the alleged sexual assault location of accuser Carla Raines.
Bates Investigates
Episode 16 ׀ Daniel Holtzclaw: Carla Raines Allegations (Part 2)
Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape. Parental guidance is suggested.
00:10 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]
Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.
Jannie Liggons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’. I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’. I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’
Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.
Sherri Ellis: He’s black.
Det. Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, black male.
Det. Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?
Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.
Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.
[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]
Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 15, 2014.
00:58
Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw. This is episode sixteen. In the last episode, I covered part one of accuser, Carla Raines’ allegations against then Oklahoma City Police Patrol Officer, Daniel Holtzclaw. The majority of last episode was the audio from an interview recorded by Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective, Rocky Gregory, and forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Raines. That interview took place on August 15th of 2014, and at Raines’ mother’s house in the thirteen hundred block of Northeast Eighteenth Street. That interview is only about twenty-seven minutes long, but I would argue it’s one of the most important interviews in this entire investigation – only second to Daniel Holtzclaw’s interrogation interview. Why? Because to me, as someone who personally investigated this case, this interview answered so many questions about what was really going on. Both with Daniel Holtzclaw as a patrol officer prior to these allegations, and with the detectives investigating this case and how their investigative techniques manipulated the facts, the accusers, and allowed Holtzclaw to be falsely prosecuted and eventually convicted. But, before I get into all of that, I want to first wrap-up what Carla Raines’ allegations actually are. Raines stated that at some point in the last year, she was walking alone along Northeast Sixteenth Street, just west of North Fonshill Avenue. She thought the time was around 10 p.m. She said that as she was walking a newer model Oklahoma City patrol car passed her and then made a U-turn, pulled up to her, and stopped. The officer, who she stated she had never encountered previously, and was later identified as Daniel Holtzclaw, exited his vehicle and began asking Raines the typical questions: her name, where she was headed, where she was coming from, did she have any drugs on her, etc.
03:12
Holtzclaw then reportedly did a quick pat search upon her before stating, “I have to check you”. Raines claims that at this point Holtzclaw made a motion for her to pull up her shirt. She told Detective Gregory that even though Holtzclaw didn’t directly order her to do so, after she lifted her shirt, he allegedly twice told her, “I need to make sure nothing is on you”. Raines said she knew that meant, she needed to lift up and her bra too, thus exposing her breasts. She stated that the officer ran her name and that she came back clear for any outstanding warrants. Raines said that she simply wanted the stop over with as quickly as possible because she didn’t want to be seen talking to a police officer and labeled a snitch. Before walking away, Raines said that Holtzclaw made another comment that, “I go around and stop girls and people to make sure they are okay.” Raines was clear, Officer Daniel Holtzclaw never touched her, never said anything blatantly inappropriate to her, and didn’t actually ever specifically instruct her to expose herself. But that’s not the biggest take away in this interview. It goes way deeper than that, and I’ll begin to dissect the importance with my thoughts on what happened during her and Holtzclaw’s encounter. For starters, regardless of Raines’ memory, this wasn’t the first time Holtzclaw had stopped her. Records show that they had run into each other on at least one previous occasion on July 10, 2013 at about 6:15 p.m. I don’t have any additional information regarding that stop, other than Holtzclaw ran Raines for warrants. It was determined by Detective Rocky Gregory that the date of the stop in which Raines claims she exposed herself took place on March 14, 2014, and at around 11:20 at night. It was about fifty-eight degrees that night and she says she was wearing tight jean shorts, a t-shirt, a bra, and a jacket.
05:23
She’s on Northeast Sixteenth Street in a high prostitution and drug area, and it is about a third of a mile from her mother’s home where she was living. Holtzclaw is in his patrol car. As he drives past Raines, he is suspicious that she is flagging cars. That’s code word for a street prostitute who is trying to get a potential customer to stop and pick her up. According to Officer Holtzclaw’s patrol car GPS, he was out at Northeast Sixteenth and Fonshill for approximately ten minutes – from 11:18 p.m. until 11:28 p.m. He pulls up, stops, gets out of his patrol car, and goes through the usual routine when encountering someone on the street: name, date of birth, what are you up to? At 11:20 p.m., Officer Holtzclaw calls into dispatch and advises them to stand by.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
[DING]
Computer: Friday, March, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, twenty-three twenty and forty-nine seconds
Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Charlie Forty-Five, standby.
Dispatcher: Standby, Charlie Forty-Five.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: According to Raines, Holtzclaw has her expose her breasts prior to him actually running her for warrants. That means it would have had to have happened in the first five minutes or less from when he pulled up and stopped. In fact, it probably would have had to have happened between the time Officer Holtzclaw told dispatch to standby and when he actually provided her name for the warrant search. Three minutes later, at 11:23 p.m., Officer Holtzclaw relays Carla Raines' information to check her for warrants.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, go ahead.
[DING]
Computer: Twenty-three twenty-three and forty seconds
Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five.
Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: I got one to run. Uh, last name is Rainez.
Carla Raines: Raines.
Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Raines. Correction. Raines. Robert-Adam-Ida-Nora-Edward-Sam. First name is Carla. Charles-Adam-Robert-Lincoln-Adam. Date of birth is [redacted]. Black female.
[DING]
Computer: Friday, March, Fourteen, Two Thousand Fourteen, twenty-three twenty-four and zero seconds
Dispatcher: [inaudible] spelling of her last name.
Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Robert-Adam-Ida-Nora-Edward-Sam.
Dispatcher: Stand by.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: At approximately 11:27 p.m., dispatch comes back with the results of the warrant check.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Dispatcher: Charlie Forty-Five, Carla’s clear.
Off. Daniel Holtzclaw: Ten four.
[RECORDING ENDS]
07:46
Host: After Raines comes back clear for warrants, Holtzclaw releases her from investigative detention, and according to his patrol car GPS, he leaves the scene and is moving again, literally sixty seconds after talking to dispatch. So, what is Raines’ actual allegation during those critical three minutes? She claims that after his initial questions, he turned all of his attention to whether or not she had any drugs on her. Raines says that she took it upon herself to raise her shirt and bra to the extent that her breasts became exposed. She claims she knew or felt that she knew that that is what Holtzclaw wanted her to do. When no drugs were found and she had no warrants, Holtzclaw released her from investigative detention to go on about her way as he continued his patrol shift. Now, to put this in perspective, Carla Raines' allegation of exposing herself, without being actually told to expose herself, will eventually result in a criminal charge that carries up to ten years in prison and fines up to twenty thousand dollars. But these allegations and the subsequent interview with Detective Rocky Gregory is actually much more than the he said/she said that many people think it is. As I mentioned earlier, this recorded interview answered critical nagging questions that I had when I first started investigating this case. Like, why are so many of these accusers all alleging they were made to expose themselves? How is it that Detectives Rocky Gregory and Kim Davis seem to almost magically and effortlessly find accusers that otherwise had not come forward on their own? And how concerned should the public be that both detectives seem to randomly choose when they will record an interview and when they won't? And just how complete and unbiased are the resulting investigative reports?
09:52
So, let's now analyze Oklahoma Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory's role in accuser Carla Raines' interview. What is initially so troubling to me is when you compare his written report to the audio recording. The first glaring difference is that Gregory writes his report in a way to make it appear as if the recorded interview at Raines' mother's house is the first time they've actually ever spoken. When in fact, the audio recording makes it obvious that not only has Detective Gregory previously interviewed Raines, but that during that interview he seemed frustrated that he couldn't get Raines to tell him what he wanted to hear. Listen to it again.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, um, I didn’t think I was kind of being clear about what I was asking. That’s the reason I wanted to meet you face-to-face.
Carla Raines: Yeah, because, I mean—I ain’t, like I say, I had cleaned my life up so I haven’t been out on no streets.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: That's not at all how Detective Gregory's report reads. I've posted a copy of the official investigative report on this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. The following is straight from that report. "On 8/15/14 I met Carla at her residence at [redacted]. I had been trying to contact Carla through phone calls and by going by her residence leaving my card." There is no mention that he had asked her questions and that he wasn't getting the answers he wanted, and therefore that’s why he decided to visit with her in person. The second, and in my opinion even more egregious, discrepancy is the fact that nowhere in Detective Gregory's official report does it ever mention that Raines denied being the victim of Daniel Holtzclaw or any other Oklahoma City police officer. And it's not like she only denied it once. She denies being a victim, no less than seven times. Listen again to a string of several denials in the opening minutes of her recorded interview.
12:09
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Have you ever come into any contact where an officer has been inappropriate?
Carla Raines: No.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever had to expose yourself to ‘em?
Carla Raines: No.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Okay.
Carla Raines: But, unh uh, cause I don’t know the streets no more. I don’t do drugs and all that kind of stuff. See, I don’t—
Det. Rocky Gregory: But you—you wasn’t asked to, if you had any drugs on you, anything like that, and had to…
Carla Raines: Expose myself?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.
Carla Raines: Unh uh. I met an officer, uh, was it this year? Uh, no, unh uh. I haven’t had—how did you get my name anyway, on something like this?
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: These two examples alone prove that not only should every interview with an accuser or alleged victim be recorded, but that when those interviews are not recorded, we absolutely cannot trust the written accounts of the detectives in charge of this investigation. In fact, we can't even trust the written reports when the interview is recorded. Keep in mind, it's these written reports that are reviewed by the higher ups within the police department and prosecutors within the district attorney's office. They often don't even listen to the recordings - if one is even made available - until right before trial, if ever at all. Why? Because there is a certain level of professionalism, trust and fairness that is expected of those conducting these types of investigations. Investigations that literally leave defendants fighting for their freedom. These two examples I just gave you prove that Detective Rocky Gregory cannot be trusted with such a high degree of transparency, fairness, and ethics. And what's more troubling, is that since this trial, Detective Gregory has been promoted to the homicide unit, where the stakes are even higher. His bias and lack of transparency can literally cost an innocent defendant their life. You'll recall in accuser Terri Morris' allegations, Detective Gregory made claims in his report that were not to be found anywhere in his recorded interviews with Morris. The same can be said about specifics contained in Detective Kim Davis' official investigative reports that don't match the recorded interviews.
14:34
But, I want to come back to this case and what this recording tells us about what Patrol Officer Daniel Holtzclaw is doing, and not doing, while out on patrol. Up to this point we are seven accusers in, or just over half of the thirteen that will eventually lead to criminal charges. Of these seven, the allegations range greatly; from burglary (the alleged unauthorized entry into Tabitha Barnes' home), to groping, or oral and/or vaginal sex. But the most common allegation amongst all seven accusers is the assertion that Officer Holtzclaw illegally forced them to expose themselves. Specifically, accusers Jannie Ligons, Terri Morris, Tabitha Barnes, and Carla Raines. With accusers Sherry Ellis, Florene Mathis, and Carla Johnson all alleging their breasts were touched to some degree. All under the guise of searching for drugs or illegal contraband. I do think Officer Holtzclaw was searching these women's breast area for those items, because it's a common hiding place. But, as I've mentioned previously in other episodes, I think he was doing it as he's been instructed by higher ranking officers and members of the gang unit. A unit he served on as a very new Oklahoma City police officer. And, as I've said before, that search technique has a name. Detective Gregory alluded to the name back in episode two during Officer Holtzclaw's interrogation regarding the Jannie Ligons stop. He refers to it as the shake. Have a listen.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Run down through on your search of her breasts again.
Daniel Holtzclaw: [inaudible]
Det. Rocky Gregory: For, like, you, you searched her with her, where was her, was she facing you or facing away?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Facing away.
Det. Rocky Gregory: She was facing away.
Daniel Holtzclaw: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: And how are you seeing if anything’s falling if she’s facing away?
Daniel Holtzclaw: If it’d fall, I would see right there.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’d see right there, but don’t you usually have em turn, face toward you and sh—do the shake out?
Daniel Holtzclaw: Uh, [laughing] officer safety, I always have everyone face away from me.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you tell her how to—how far to raise her shirt? Or to do the, the shake with the bra?
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: However, in Raines' interview, he actually calls it by its formal name: the Clasp and Shake. That unfortunate and unimaginable request by an Oklahoma City Police officer to have a female clasp her bra from on top of her shirt, pull it away from her breasts and shake, all with the intent to dislodge anything hidden underneath the breast tissue. But this term has so far only been coined in this investigation by Detective Rocky Gregory. Meaning he knows about this procedure. He knows that even though it doesn't appear in any official police policy manual it's commonly taught to officers and he knows it has a name. The Clasp and Shake.
17:44
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you have your breasts exposed?
Carla Raines: Yeah. You have to. You have to. You have raise your shirt up, take the inside of your bra and you raise it up, and so—he said make sure there ain’t nothing…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. There’s—there’s…
Carla Raines: You understand what I’m saying?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah. But…
Carla Raines: I know what you talking about.
Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s the clasp and shake.
Carla Raines: It’s not…
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: I firmly believe that's what Officer Holtzclaw was doing while on patrol when he encountered individuals that he knew or highly suspected were drug addicts and most likely had drugs or drug paraphernalia on them. In fact, even Carla Raines initially dismisses this as "the routine".
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt.
Carla Raines: Raise my shirt up right here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s the next thing he asked?
Carla Raines: Nothing. So, I had to raise my shirt up right here…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.
Carla Raines: Cause I know the routine.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: It's only after denying being a victim of any officer seven times and then being told by Detective Gregory that he's seeking a really bad guy and that there’s lots of victims, does Raines start to come around. Here's how Detective Gregory described that revelation with Carla Raines during an interview with conservative commentator, author, and investigative reporter, Michelle Malkin, after Officer Holtzclaw's trial.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: I just simply asked her, I’m, like, ‘Hey, I’m investigating a—a situation. Have, you know, you ever been—had any issues with any officers?’ And in the beginning she said, ‘No, no’ but her grandma was there, uh, and then, there at the end, she’s like, ‘Hey, hang on a second. Can we talk privately?’ Uh, I’m like, ‘Sure.’ So, we step over to the side and she’s like, ‘Well, there--there was, uh, one incident.’ And she goes into that she was stopped and, uh, she had to expose her breasts to, uh, to an officer. And she tried to describe as best she could. And then I verified, you know, it was Daniel. And that’s, that’s kinda how it went. She did say no in the beginning, but sh—it was because she didn’t want her grandma to hear. And we, we do that…
Michelle Malkin: Did she tell you that?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Um, I spoke with her a couple times. I know that she kind of a—a—alluded, just, I knew, I just knew that that’s what the reason was when she said she wanted to speak in, in private. Uh…
Michelle Malkin: So, she had, so she had basically denied several times that she was a victim. You—you’re saying it’s because she didn’t want her grandma to know?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, I—I…
Michelle Malkin: And you’re assuming that or she told you that? I’m just trying…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, I just, just in speaking with her I did gather that because, just because she wanted to speak in private. Um, at the time, I—I could tell she was really nervous. Uh, she’s had a past history, you know, getting stopped by the police. You know, she had that normal history with officers, or, sorry, with—with a, she had that normal past history of, you know, drugs, and, you know, everything else like we’d been seeing. And, uh, I kinda just kinda gained rapport with her. Um, and, uh, and I think she felt more comfortable that she—that’s why she took me aside and, uh, we spoke alone and she told me what happened.
[RECORDING ENDS]
21:09
Host: Did you catch that spin? And once again he is completely deviating from what is crystal clear in his recorded interview with accuser Carla Raines. Detective Gregory claims that Raines only initially (and seven times) denied being a victim because her mother (whom he wrongly keeps identifying as her grandmother) was within earshot during that part of their interview and she didn't want to talk about it around her. Let’s hear what she actually said again so we can put it into context.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, this is the deal. We’ve got several victims.
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay? And so, we’re trying to go back on this guy, and um… he’s a pretty bad guy.
Carla Raines: Was he, was he, uh uh uh, dressing himself as an officer or [inaudible] prostitutes?
Carla’s mother: [in background] Boy, you got some [inaudible] cops in Oklahoma.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Do what?
Carla’s mother: Oklahoma. Boy, you white folks is crazy.
Det. Rocky Gregory: [Laughing]
Carla Raines: Uh.
Carla’s mother: You no good.
Carla Raines: As far as—cause I haven’t really been on the streets and stuff…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: That—that much, so… but, I—I mean, I know what you talking about, I just couldn’t be talking in front of her, but, uh, I know what you talking about as far as, uh, but I haven’t—you know, but was he—what you mean expose himself, as far as ask for a prostitution or uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Not even necessarily for prostitutes. But he tries to… he’s having women do different things.
Carla Raines: Oh, thinking he--they gonna go to jail, if they do a favor for him, they wouldn’t.
Det. Rocky Gregory: There you go.
Carla Raines: Okay, I know what you talking about. Uh… within the past year, I really can’t really recall…
[RECORDING ENDS]
22:49
Host: It should be very clear, Detective Gregory is lying. Or at the very least, his bias against Officer Daniel Holtzclaw is so strong he can no longer be objective about any aspect of this investigation. Raines wasn't afraid to speak in front of her mother. If that was truly the case, then what's his excuse for why she didn't tell him more details when they talked privately on the phone? It’s very obvious to me in this recorded interview that Raines is simply trying to figure out what the hell Detective Gregory is talking about. It's only after Detective Gregory spoon feeds her enough details that she simply regurgitates what she thinks he wants to hear. And to be quite honest, I think much of what she says is actually true to some extent. She was stopped by Officer Holtzclaw, she was she run for warrants, and he did what she considers to be routine... he had her do the clasp and shake.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt?
Carla Raines: Right here. Right here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: To just above the breasts.
Carla Raines: Right above my breasts. And I had to take my bra.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he… Now what…
Carla Raines: And my breasts fell out.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: Do I think some of these women lifted their shirts higher than necessary? Yes. Do I think some of these women's breasts fell below their shirt line once they were no longer being supported by their bra? Yes. Do I think any of that was done with malicious, illegal, or sexually gratifying intent? One hundred percent, no. It's obvious when you listen to Raines' interview that even she didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary until Detective Gregory made her feel that it was. Again, Carla Raines.
24:39
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Carla Raines: So I had to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, and shake it out. And he, he talked me about forty-five minutes and, um, then he let me go.
[RECORDING ENDS]
Host: If you go back through her interview, she must recount doing the clasp and shake at least four or five times. And she waffles back and forth between being told to expose herself to ultimately admitting she just "knew that's what she needed to do." She also claims this entire interaction took forty-five minutes. In reality, we know from patrol car GPS it was only ten minutes or possibly slightly less than that. One last thing… Did you catch it? Before Raines realized she needed to focus in on when Daniel Holtzclaw stopped her, she did implicate a different officer for wrongdoing, but Detective Gregory steered her away from that. And just like accuser Sherry Ellis, Carla Raines implicated a black Oklahoma City police officer.
[RECORDING BEGINS]
Carla Raines: There’s only one officer that I know, a few years back, he used to, O—this was before OU was only going to Sixteenth Street and back. He was a black cop that used to come around here. You know, um, but, like you say, if, I mean, he done stop—I done got stopped by him but he didn’t question me. But he just, like, uh, I—I understand a girl that exposed her breast to him before, you know, but as far as him threatening to grab somebody or if they…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: I’ve never seen that before, but…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. I think that covers it. I-I just didn’t think I was being clear on the, on the phone when we talked…
Carla Raines: You was being quite clear. But like I said, that’s the only time that I had that happen to me when I was on the south side. And he couldn’t say that I was prostituting, cause I wasn’t. I was at the gas station.
Det. Rocky Gregory: On the, on the deal?
Carla Raines: Yeah. And that’s, he exposed hisself to me. It was a black officer. He, I guess they was doing some type of sting or whatever.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Sting. Yeah, VICE sting.
Carla Raines: Yeah.
[RECORDING ENDS]
26:42
Host: This brings up two interesting points. One, Raines is now the second accuser to implicate a black Oklahoma City Police officer in wrongdoing in this investigation. And two, Detective Gregory realizes what Raines is talking about. She's talking about another disgusting reality of acceptable Oklahoma City Police procedure that is conveniently not discussed publicly. That officers are allowed, even encouraged, to expose themselves to women and have women get completely naked and expose themselves and even touch officers while they’re working undercover, even though those women at that point haven't done anything illegal. Yet, Detective Gregory is trying to railroad Officer Holtzclaw when he simply initiates another accepted, though not discussed, police procedure, the clasp and shake. There will be more examples of Detectives Rocky Gregory and Kim Davis' questionable investigative techniques in future episodes. But this is where I'm going to stop this episode. If you'd like to see three hundred and sixty degree photos of where Carla Raines and Officer Daniel Holtzclaw encountered each other, along with maps, police reports, and a transcript of this episode, I encourage you to check out this episode's homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. This serialized podcast of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense.
28:26
If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. You can also follow updates on this season’s Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Instagram and Twitter @HoltzclawTrial. Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates. This has been a bug stomper production.
[child singing] Huh? [squishing sound] [laughter] Bugs!
