EP 15: Carla Raines Allegations (Part 1)
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Official Police, and Private Investigator Reports/Notes (redacted) Below:
OKC Police Investigative Photos
Below is a 360° photo take by private investigator Brian Bates of the alleged sexual assault location of accuser Carla Raines.
Transcript:
Disclaimer: This podcast deals with adult subject matter, including depictions of drug addiction, prostitution, sexual assault, and rape. Parental guidance is suggested.
00:10 [OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE]
Newscaster: Officer Daniel Holtzclaw, with the Police Department for three years, is accused of raping and sexually assaulting women he pulled over while on the job.
Jannie Liggons: He said, ‘Come on, come on, just a minute, just a minute’. I say, ‘Sir, I can’t do this’. I say, ‘you gonna shoot...’
Det. Kim Davis: Tell me your description of him.
Sherri Ellis: He’s black.
Det Kim Davis: He’s b—okay, black male.
Det Kim Davis: What did your daughter tell you?
Amanda Gates: She said, ‘I met this really hot cop’.
Shardayreon Hill: So, this is good evidence?
Det Rocky Gregory: Well, you tell me.
[OPENING AUDIO COLLAGE ENDS]
Timestamp: The following episode contains investigative events which occurred August 15, 2014.
00:59
Host: Welcome back to Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw. This is episode fifteen. In the last episode, I covered the allegations of fifty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Johnson, who was interviewed by Oklahoma City Police Sex Crimes Detective Kim Davis on August 14, 2014. That interview was allegedly not recorded. However, records show, that on that same day, Detective Davis also met with fifty-three year old accuser, Florene Mathis, a second time. While her first interview was video and audio recorded, the second meeting was allegedly not. Also on this date, Detective Gregory met with and interviewed forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Tabitha Barnes. You’ll recall, that interview, which was allegedly also not recorded, was cut short when Barnes became incoherent and was unable to stay awake. Detective Gregory made plans with her to return the next morning. On that next day, August 15, 2014, Detective Gregory went to try to interview accuser Barnes for a second time, but she wasn’t home.
02:15
Detective Davis visits with accusers Mathis and Johnson, yet again, at separate locations to get DNA samples from both of them. Those encounters were not recorded. Detective Gregory, unable to locate accuser Barnes, drives over and interviews forty-one year old Northeast Oklahoma City resident, Carla Raines. According to Detective Gregory’s official investigative report, which I have published on this episode’s homepage, at holtzclawtrial.com, “On 8-15-14, I met with Carla at her residence in the thirteen hundred block of Northeast Eighteenth. I had been trying to contact Carla through phone calls and by going by her residence, leaving my card. Carla contacted me on this date and advised she would speak with me. I advised Carla I had a possible tip that maybe she was the victim of a sexual assault. I was given her name through Lieutenant Muzny on the list of possible victims. See supplemental. She advised she would speak with me in person.” Now, I want you to pay very close attention to this next quote. It’s literally the second paragraph of Detective Gregory’s report. “Carla advised that she was stopped by an officer who made her expose her breasts. He did not touch her inappropriately, but made her expose herself to him. I asked Carla to explain.”
03:56
Seems simple enough, doesn’t it? Detective Gregory makes contact with someone whose name appears on this mysterious list. And what do you know? They’re a victim. But it’s actually not that simple. To hear or read Detective Gregory’s report, it definitely sounds like he simply knocked on the door and the interviewee just came right out and shared how she had been victimized. I’m going to play for you now the actual recording of that interview. Before today, this interview has never been played in its entirety for the public other than at the jury trial. I want you to decide for yourself if Detective Gregory’s report is a fair or bias portrayal of his interview with Carla Raines. In particular, when does she get around to claiming she’s a victim? How many times does she deny being a victim of any officer? And does it seem like Detective Gregory is leading or coaxing her to say exactly what he wants. Have a listen for yourself.
05:01[RECORDING BEGINS]
[DINGING NOISE AND SHUFFLING SOUNDS]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Knock, knock.
Carla Raines: [Come-in?] (mostly inaudible)
Det. Rocky Gregory: Hello?
Carla Raines: Just a minute.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes ma’am.
[Women speaking inaudibly in the background]
Carla’s mother: Who is that?
Carla Raines: That’s the detective.
Carla’s mother: Oh. Okay.
Carla Raines: Here you go. Get my belt on, get my ID and stuff out.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you’re fine. How you doing, Carla? Hey, I’m Det--
Carla Raines: I’m doing fine.
Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m Detective Gregory.
Carla Raines: Here, you can have a seat. [shuffling noises and inaudible mumbling] …fix this.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you’re all right. [shuffling and mumbling continues] Well, um, I didn’t think I was kind of being clear about what I was asking. That’s the reason I wanted to meet you face-to-face.
Carla Raines: Yeah, because, I mean—I ain’t, like I say, I had cleaned my life up so I haven’t been out on no streets. I haven’t had—this is my ID—but I was…
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re fine.
Carla Raines: …telling you that I had lost my ID, but I got—this is my current address, this address.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.
Carla Raines: But my last ID—see I was supposed to call and report and I forgot it, cause that’s what happened to me before, cause I ain’t have no warrants or nothing, and I didn’t want nobody trying to use my name.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.
Carla Raines: And uh—end up—and I’m—we done got stopped and they taking me to jail for robbing a bank or something. [Laughing]
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you’re wanting your ID back? Is that…
Carla Raines: No, no, no. I lost my ID. I was just letting you know.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Oh, you lost it?
Carla Raines: Yeah, this is a new one and I lost my old one.
06:18
Detective Gregory: That’s okay. Okay. [long pause] Just in the past year, or we could say two, but I’m gonna focus in on mainly, like, this year, 2014, but let’s go back just a year. Okay?
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Have you ever come into any contact where an officer has been inappropriate?
Carla Raines: No.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever had to expose yourself to ‘em?
Carla Raines: No.
Detective Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: I haven’t had really had no—I had I think, like, one con—one, one contact since this year, and um, it was just—no two. Well, actually, I wasn’t driving and I was in the passenger seat, but I, you know? Like I said I carry my ID and everything.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: But, unh uh, cause I don’t know the streets no more. I don’t do drugs and all that kind of stuff. See, I don’t—
Det. Rocky Gregory: But you—you wasn’t asked to, if you had any drugs on you, anything like that, and had to…
Carla Raines: Expose myself?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.
Carla Raines: Unh uh. I met an officer, uh, was it this year?
07:21
Det. Rocky Gregory: Hi.
Carla Raines: Oh, that’s my mother.
Det. Rocky Gregory: How you doin?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Are you a cop?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, ma’am. I think I am. Sometimes, I pretend to be.
Carla’s mother: [inaudible]
Carla Raines: [Laughing] Uh, no, unh uh. I haven’t had—how did you get my name anyway, on something like this?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, this is the deal. We’ve got several victims.
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay? And so, we’re trying to go back on this guy, and um… he’s a pretty bad guy.
Carla Raines: Was he, was he, uh uh uh, dressing himself as an officer or [inaudible] prostitutes?
Carla’s mother: [in background] Boy, you got some [inaudible] cops in Oklahoma.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Do what?
Carla’s mother: Oklahoma. Boy, you white folks is crazy.
Det. Rocky Gregory: [Laughing]
Carla Raines: Uh.
Carla’s mother: You no good.
08:04
Carla Raines: As far as—cause I haven’t really been on the streets and stuff…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: That—that much, so… but, I—I mean, I know what you talking about, I just couldn’t be talking in front of her, but, uh, I know what you talking about as far as, uh, but I haven’t—you know, but was he—what you mean expose himself, as far as ask for a prostitution or uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Not even necessarily for prostitutes. But he tries to… he’s having women do different things.
Carla Raines: Oh, thinking he--they gonna go to jail, if they do a favor for him, they wouldn’t.
Det. Rocky Gregory: There you go.
Carla Raines: Okay, I know what you talking about. Uh… within the past year, I really can’t really recall, uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: And how I come across your name is—is this… is that… uh, anybody with, like, uh… anybody he’s been running. Okay? And we kinda came up with a list.
Carla Raines: Oh, okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: So, it’s been… The only area…
Det. Rocky Gregory: The problem is…
Carla Raines: I been in is… I been in this area. See, this is the only one, I even thought that prostitute… see this is the only one I was in, and, I guess, like, about three or four months, cause I had been to detox when they first started open—cause I use to be right down the street, but then from Nineteenth, well, Twentieth, on down to maybe Seventeenth, within this area…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.
Carla Raines: That was the area that I was, that’s the area—the main area that I was in prostitution in. And, uh, I mean, you’d have some men stop with theyself already exposed. And, uh, you know, they, uh, have you play with them, you know, while they stand there, or the—they play with themself, I—there’s a couple men that does that.
09:36
Det. Rocky Gregory: Mm hmm.
Carla Raines: That play with theyself. They already have theyself exposed when they stop you, and um, then they ha—they hand you, like, twenty dollars, through the s—through the window, and um, there’s been a couple of men that does that. That—that’s by themselves, yeah.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now, are you talking about cops? Or are you talking about…
Carla Raines: I don’t know. I don’t know if they be cops or not. Sometimes, you know, I never had a uniform officer.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: There’s only one officer that I know, a few years back, he used to, O—this was before OU was only going to Sixteenth Street and back. He was a black cop that used to come around here. You know, um, but, like you say, if, I mean, he done stop—I done got stopped by him but he didn’t question me. But he just, like, uh, I—I understand a girl that exposed her breast to him before, you know, but as far as him threatening to grab somebody or if they…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: I’ve never seen that before, but…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: Unh uh.
10:30
Det. Rocky Gregory: Well, an—and the short list that we’ve had, a lot of them something’s happened.
Carla Raines: Yeah. Oh yeah! You got some [inaudible]…
Det. Rocky Gregory: And no one came forward or anything, we had to go to th—them.
Carla Raines: Yeah, because…
Det. Rocky Gregory: And so that’s why…
Carla Raines: You know why? Because, you know what, it’s like this… if they do come forward, a lot of times you—you gotta know what they got to deal with. What you guys don’t see what we have to deal with. You know what I’m saying? They want my—say, like, they say they wanna search you. Or they search the car or something like that. And um, that can cause you a lot of problems out here. Especially women that be out here. Even, just like, we walking down the street sometime, I even got stopped coming—I used to live right over here on Fourteenth and McKillan—uh, Kelham.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: I was walking and this officer in a black car stopped me. And he was—I said ‘Why are you stopping me?’ He was—he asked me—I said ‘I live right here on fourteenth. I’m’—I was just a block, two blocks from my house. And he was just, like, ‘Well, we just wanna talk to you.’ I said, ‘Well, what you wanna talk to me for?’ And so, he searched me, he searched me, and everything like that. You know, how they raise up your bra and all that stuff, he searched me. And I’m, like, uh, ‘I’m right around the corner from my house. What do you want from me?’ And, he was, like, uh, ‘Well, we—I just wanted to talk.’ But he had me in the car for, like thirty—forty five minutes. Right there on Sixteenth.
Det. Rocky Gregory: How long ago?
Carla Raines: This was last year. It was summer time, cause I remember it was—it had just turned night and I l left my house on Fourteenth and—we stayed in four—in between Kelham and, uh, uh, Missouri.
Det. Rocky Gregory: But he had you search how? I mean, how did he search you?
Carla Raines: Like, you know how they search your pockets, and you know raise your…
Det. Rocky Gregory: I know how I…
Carla Raines: Yeah, no, but, but you know how they raise your bra—have you raise your shirt up and raise your bra up and shake it out. And…
12:04
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. But nothing above? Did he have you lift your bra?
Carla Raines: Yeah. You have to raise your shirt up, lift your bra—yeah, you have to lift your shirt up, lift your bra, shake ‘em out, and make sure ain’t nothing—like, he say, make sure you ain’t got nothing in beneath, you know, your breasts.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did this…
Carla Raines: And I know a man cop ain’t supposed to do that. I know a man cop is not—you can empty your pockets, but he is not supposed to touch you, they supposed to call a female officer, that I do know. But there wasn’t no female officer called. It was at night time. I was by myself. And he stopped me, and searched me and everything, and um…
Det. Rocky Gregory: How…
Carla Raines: Had me to raise my shirt up, do my bra…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you have your breasts exposed?
Carla Raines: Yeah. You have to. You have to. You have raise your shirt up, take the inside of your bra and you raise it up, and so—he said make sure there ain’t nothing…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. There’s—there’s…
Carla Raines: You understand what I’m saying?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah. But…
Carla Raines: I know what you talking about.
Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s the clasp and shake.
Carla Raines: It’s not—no. It’s the raise your shirt up and raise your bra up. [Laugh]
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he say to do that?
Carla Raines: Yeah, he said, like, he needed to check to see if I had anything on… and I’m, like, ‘Where is the off—the female officer? Well, I got my ID, why are you searching me?’ He’s, like, ‘Well, we just want to talk to you to make sure you safe.’ How am I not safe? I’m two blocks from my house.
Det. Rocky Gregory: He said ‘we’? Was there two of them?
Carla Raines: Nope. There was only one. Mm hmm, he just said ‘we’. That we…
Det. Rocky Gregory: What’d he look like?
13:32
Carla Raines: He was—he was a nice looking man. He was kinda, kinda—I guess say probably about five nine—six feet, something like that, tall. Uh, he wasn’t, like, I can’t really say if he was Caucasian or Mexican, cause he was brown skinned and had dark hair. And um, and like I say, he just had me to raise my bra.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Was he fat? Was he…
Carla Raines: Unh uh. He was nice built. Unh uh. He wasn’t fat.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Built like how?
Carla Raines: Like, like he worked out. You could tell that he took care of his body. Uh, and uh, he just had me to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, shake, like, my breasts.
Det. Rocky Gregory: And he asked you to raise your bra?
Carla Raines:Yeah, he raise—you have to raise your shirt—like he said, raise—cause I know if a female does it, she don’t raise your shirt all the way.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Cause you know, you know how it is.
Carla Raines: Yeah. Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: But he had..
Det. Rocky Gregory: To the belly.
Carla Raines: No. Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Maybe a clasp, maybe a shake.
Carla Raines: I know what you talking about, that’s not what I did. I raised my shirt up…
Det. Rocky Gregory: But why did you—and, I—I’m trying to ask this in the right way.
Carla Raines: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Why did you do that?
Carla Raines: Because he asked me to. He said to see if I had anything on me. And I’m like, ‘My au—my house is right here. I’m…’ He said, ‘Well, where you going?’ I said, ‘Is it against the law for me to walk the neighbor—I know people over here.’
14:31
Det. Rocky Gregory: Anything with your pants or anything?
Carla Raines: No, he—he had me to do my pants like this, like, you know, he touched my pockets and stuff to make sure I didn’t have noth—which I had tight pants on so you could tell I didn’t have nothing in my pockets, so I had to raise my shirt up, raise my bra up, and shake it out. And he, he talked me about forty five minutes and, um, then he let me go. He said, ‘We just, uh—we just wanna make sure you’re okay.’ And I—I was like ‘What am I—what—what’s wrong—what?’
Carla’s mother: Excuse me, uh, twin... Hand me that big Bible off…
Carla Raines: This?
Carla’s mother: Yeah.
Carla Raines: So, uh, that’s what he just had me do. He just talked me to, like, different stuff. He didn’t ask me about no drugs. He didn’t ask me about no, no, uh, like, no houses where they get drugs at. He didn’t ask me none of that. He just said that, uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m gonna go ba—I’m gonna take some notes this time.
Carla Raines: Okay. Okay. He just asked me…
Det. Rocky Gregory: How long ago you think that was?
Carla Raines: This was last year. It wasn’t cold outside. It was—it was kind…
Det. Rocky Gregory: It was last year.
Carla Raines: No, it wasn’t chilly. When we stayed over there off of Fourteenth it wasn’t, uh, it wasn’t that cold outside cause I remember I didn’t have no jacket.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me s—Make sure I got…
15:45
Carla Raines: Yeah. [long pause] But it was right off here off of, you know where, uh, Sixteenth and Fonshell is? I was on Sixteenth, but I was—it was by Fonshell.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. So it was…
Carla Raines: And he was in a black police car.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So it was Northeast Sixteenth?
Carla Raines: Mm hmm. On Sixteenth Street by Fonshell. He was in a black car. And—a black police car.
Det. Rocky Gregory: All black?
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Is it the one with the ‘police’ on the side?
Carla Raines: With—with the ‘sheriff’ or whatever there the blue writing is on the side. And he stopped me. And…
Det. Rocky Gregory: About what time you think it was?
Carla Raines: It was, like, about nine—ten—it was dark. Bout ten, something like that. And uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’re just walking alone.
Carla Raines: Mm hmm. I was by myself. He’s talking about he just wanna make sure…
Det. Rocky Gregory: But you was on Sixteenth or you were on Fonshell?
Carla Raines: I was on Sixteenth by Fonshell. I was just—I had just passed, like, a couple of feet past Fonshell. I was on the north side of the street. I remember that.
Detective Gregory: Okay. So, he…
Carla Raines: And…
Det. Rocky Gregory: T—talk me through it. I know you kind of ran down through it, but I wanna…
Carla Raines: Yeah, okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: So, he stopped, first he went by, then he came back around and he stopped me. And, he was—I said, ‘Uh, is there a problem, officer?’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, uh, we—I said, ‘Well, what you stop me for?’ He was, like, uh, ‘Where you going?’ I sa—he said ‘Where you coming from?’ I said, ‘home.’ He said, ‘Where you live at?’ I said, ‘On Fourteenth Street’. And he was, like, um, ‘Well, where you going to?’ I said, ‘I’m just going to visit, just going to hang out.’ I said, ‘Is there a problem with that?’ He’s like, no. So, he asked me did I have anything on me. I said no, and which I had on some pants kinda like this.
16:51
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so you had on, like, like, shorts?
Carla Raines: Some tight.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Like, jean shorts?
Carla Raines: Yeah. And he had, and he had me to—he touched my pockets, like, my behi—my behind and my, uh, front pockets. And then I had to raise my shirt up.
Det. Rocky Gregory: He touched it or you touched it?
Carla Raines: No, he did.
Det. Rocky Gregory:: Is this before—did you ever sit in the backseat of the car?
Carla Raines: Yeah, I was sitting—before I got in the backseat of the car. He had me in the backseat.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, this is before.
Carla Raines: Yeah, he had me in the backseat after I did all this. You know…
Detective Gregory: Okay, so before—before you sat down?
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Detective Gregory: He does this.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, anything on you? You say no. Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: And, um, you know, touch my pockets or whatever. I was, like, see, I said, “My pants is too tight for me—for you to even—for if there was anything on me.’ And so, I had to…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Your front, did he do the back of his hand or just the front?
Carla Raines: No. It was just—it was just, like, [patting noise] Like this.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So it was like a pat search. Okay.
Carla Raines: Yeah. Mm hmm. And then, um, you know I had to raise my shirt up—I had to raise my shirt up…
18:01
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now, this is the part that I’m—I’m wanting to make sure that I understand. Okay. So his next thing is… did he ask if you had anything in your shirt?
Carla Raines: Yeah. He’s just, like, ‘You got anything on…’ he’s like, uh, ‘Anything in—on your top?’ I was, like, ‘Nope’. So, I had to raise my shirt, or he had to raise my shirt up. And I had to…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Say exactly how he—he said it.
Carla Raines: He was just, like, ‘Anything else on, you know, the top part?’ I was, like, ‘No.’ And so, he was just, like, uh, he was just, like, ‘Well, I—You know I have to check you.’ And, you know, I—I thought that was kind of funny, I’m, like, only a female officer is supposed to touch a female.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so he says, ‘I have to check you’. So, what do you…
Carla Raines: So, I did the raising up. I had to raise up my shirt. And I had to take my bra...
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: Raise up my shirt.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Hang on. Sorry.
Carla Raines: I was just gonna put it right here…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Sorry. That’s [laugh] yeah. So you raise your shirt?
Carla Raines: Right here. Right here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: To just above the breasts.
Carla Raines: Right above my breasts. And I had to take my bra.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he…
Carla Raines: And my breasts fell out.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now what—tell me exactly what he’s saying through this?
Carla Raines: No, he was just looking at me.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he doesn’t—he just says ‘I have to check you’.
Carla Raines: Yeah, mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, then you raise your shirt?
Carla Raines: I raise my shirt up right here and I raise my bra up. And I had to shake it out.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Now before you said he said something. I wanna know what he told you to do.
Carla Raines: Uh, he just—to make sure I ha—didn’t have anything up here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh huh.
Carla Raines: That’s what he said. So, I raised my shirt—he didn’t touch me—I had to raise my shirt up.
Det. Rocky Gregory: But he asked you to raise your shirt?
Carla Raines: Yeah, he said he needed to make sure I didn’t have anything up here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: In my bra.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So you raise your shirt.
Carla Raines: Raise my shirt up right here.
19:07
Det. Rocky Gregory: What’s the next thing he asked?
Carla Raines: Nothing. So, I had to raise my shirt up right here, cause I know the routine, so I just raised my shirt up right here. And, uh, which I found kind of funny because he said, you know, he—I had to do it, so I raised my shirt up and I took my bra—my breasts came out. My breasts came out. I said, ‘See, I don’t have anything.’ And, you know, I kinda flicked my bra like this, and then I put my breasts back in my bra and rolled my shirt up, and so he, he, um, put me in the backseat.
Detective Gregory: Okay, hang on. Let’s see, I don’t have that… okay, and maybe I misunderstood you before… I thought he asked you to lift your shirt.
Carla Raines: He asked me if I had anything up here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Right. Okay, he asked…
Carla Raines: So, to me, I tak-ed it as, you know, uh, he was, like, ‘Well, do you have any’ cause he—my—he did my pockets like this and he asked me if I had anything up here. I said, ‘No, I don’t have anything on me.’
20:20
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he didn’t tell you to pull your bra up, you just did it.
Carla Raines: It was more or less, like, a motion to where, uh, uh… I’m trying to hurry up and get away from him, so… cause, you—like I said I’m in the neighborhood. Somebody see you in the neighborhood, that’s not good, they see the police, you know, stopping you, whatever, cause then everybody saying if you talk to the police you a snitch. So, therefore, I raised—I said, ‘See, look, I don’t have anything on me.’
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, so he…
Carla Raines: He said he had to make sure.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: This is what he told me, he said, ‘I need to make sure.’ So I said okay…
Det. Rocky Gregory: I need to check you. Need to make sure. So, then that’s when you lift your shirt.
Carla Raines: Shirt up. Right here. And I took my bra, and I did it like this.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: And my breasts came out.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, he didn’t ask you to take your bra—you just…
Carla Raines: No, he just said he needed to make sure.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: He needed to make sure.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. And then, then you put everything up.
Carla Raines: Mm hmm. And he just—he had a conversation with me. Like, he ran my name. He had me in the back of the police car and he ran my name. Uh, I said, ‘I don’t have no warrants. I don’t have no tickets or anything like that.’ I said, uh, and he was, like, well, he needed to make sure that... And I was, like, ‘What was the purpose of this stop?’ And he’s, like, ‘Well, we just,’ he said, ‘We just going around stopping girls and stopping people.’ He said, ‘Girls and people in the neighborhood to make sure that they okay.’ I said, ‘Well, why are you doing that?’ I mean, I didn’t understand that. So, that’s what he said. To make sure that, um, people are okay. And so, I just—when I walked, matter a fact, I turnt down this st—no, the s—uh, uh, uh—I was—did I turn down, uh—cause when he did that, I—I backtracked and went down Prospect and I came up Seventeenth Street and when I got to the corner of Seventeenth I saw somebody that I knew and I was talking to him. And he came back around and told the man that uh, uh, if he didn’t go—cause, cause police lights had blinded him—and he said if he didn’t go—I said, I told him, I said, ‘Go ahead and give me a ride over here and drop me off on Sixteenth.’ So, he said okay, and he said—and the police—and the same cop, he pulled up, and he had his lights on him and he was like, ‘If you don’t go, Ima take you to jail.” That’s what he told the man. But the man, reason why he didn’t, he didn’t go right away cause the—po—when he pulled up his lights blinded him through his mirrors. And, so, that’s when he said that, so the guy, he got upset cause he was like why is he flashing his—you know, but he didn’t say anything. So, the guy just went and the police just went on, he just went on around him and kept on going.
22:35
Det. Rocky Gregory: So after running you and everything, he just let you go?
Carla Raines: Mm hmm. That’s it. Yeah.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, besides the whole pants check, did he touch you at any other time?
Carla Raines: No, just—I just exposed my breasts.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You ever dealt with him before?
Carla Raines: Nope, I never even seen him again.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You said he’s about how tall?
Carla Raines: He look like he was about six, six feet, something like that. Um, I can’t say whether he white or mixed cause he—I know he had brown skin and he was nice looking. He looked like…
Det. Rocky Gregory: You said white and brown?
Carla Raines: He was, like, light brown skin, like, like a Mexican. Kinda like a tan kind of. Like, his skin was tan.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: And he had black hair. An, you know, it was neatly done. And, you can tell that he worked out. You could tell that.
Det. Rocky Gregory: What do you think he’d weigh?
Carla Raines: I—probably about two ten, something like that, two—I don’t—somewhere in there like that cause he was tall. And, that was the last time I se…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Any scars, marks, tattoos?
Carla Raines: Unh uh. I didn’t notice none of that cause it was kinda dark and, and he had me in the backseat.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you catch his name or anything?
Carla Raines: Unh uh. He had me in the back seat. And he had me there, like, about thirty, forty five minutes. And he was just running my name [inaudible]…
Det. Rocky Gregory: He ever tell you to put your shirt back down or anything or you just did it?
Carla Raines: No, I just did it on my own. Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did you take it like you had to lift your, your bra?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yes, I did. That’s the only reason why I did it. Yes.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Why—why did?
Carla Raines: Because he was, like, he needed to check…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Articulate that to me.
Carla Raines: He needed to check to make sure I didn’t have anything on me. And I’m, like, ‘Sir, I don’t have nothing on me.’ And I, you know, I was, like, ‘See’ and I did like that. And so, he was kinda, like, standing there so I, cause I kinda raised my shirt up and he was just, like, looking at me. So, I was just, went on ahead, and, ‘See, I don’t have any’—and I exposed my breasts, and I said, ‘See, I don’t have anything on me.’
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, you lifted the sh—shirt…
Carla Raines: Lifted my shirt up.
Detective Gregory: What’s his very—did he say something in between the shirt and the…
Carla Raines: No. He was just…
Detective Gregory: …pulling the bra?
Carla Raines: No. He was just looking. He just looked. That’s all.
24:36
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he have a flashlight on you or anything like that?
Carla Raines: Unh uh. Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Where was you standing when all of this…
Carla Raines: I was standing on the north side of the street. Uh, cause I had just…
Det. Rocky Gregory: As far as, as far as, where the car was.
Carla Raines: Uh, right by—right beside the car. He was, like, standing… we was towards the back of the car, and um, it was kinda dark on that street. And, cause, it’s like where the good time house, where they, but that was—it closed, like, you know before the sun start going down, it closed. So, I was—I had walked past there and I had crossed the street on, on Sixteenth, and I was walking on Sixteenth and I—a few feet past Fonshell. And then I had crossed the street. I was on the north side of the street. That’s when he pulled up. Cause he went around. First he was—passed me up and then he came back around when his car was facing west.
Det. Rocky Gregory: So, because he was saying that he needed to check you and…
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Did he ever motion to pull your bra?
Carla Raines: Not really. But he was looking at my shirt, like, looking, looking toward my top area, cause he was looking, like, ‘I just need to make sure there’s nothing on you.’ I mean, he repeated that twice. So, that’s when I raised my shirt up and said, ‘See, I told you I don’t have nothing on me.’ He repeated it twice. He said it twice. So, that’s why I raised my shirt up.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Let me ask you… this all your stops…
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Many cops. Have you ever pulled your breasts out like that before?
Carla Raines:Unh uh. Not even with a female cop. Female cop always do—take it and do it like this.
Det. Rocky Gregory:Why this time?
Carla Raines: I don’t know. I was by myself. I don’t know. I was by myself. And then, it was, like I say, it wasn’t that many, the good time house was closed, there wasn’t that much traffic, and I had just left my house.
Det. Rocky Gregory: And I—I know, this is kinda, I—I’ve gotta… I’ve got, like, a record…
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay, but I don’t have, like, every time you’re stopped. So, I just… just kind of a guesstimate… how many times you think you been stopped…
Carla Raines: Once right there.
Det. Rocky Gregory: …searched like that.
Carla Raines: Once right there. And, like, one time, it was during the daytime.
Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m saying how many times, not even searched like that…
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: How many times you think you been searched…
Carla Raines: Like?
Det. Rocky Gregory: Where you’ve never had to do anything like that before?
Carla Raines: That’s the only time I ever had to do anything like that.
Det. Rocky Gregory: But out of how many stops, you think?
Carla Raines: That I’ve had to search like that? Not…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Not like that. But, I’m just saying appropriately.
26:48
Carla Raines: Appropriately? I got stopped once from going down the street over there on Twenty Third, and, they, but he--they—he was looking for drugs, cause he admittedly detained me, but there—it wasn’t no drugs or anything in the car. And then one time it was two females, they stopped me. Which, I was coming from the neighbor—I was leaving from the neighborhood. I was walking up Everest, cause I just had my jacket at somebody house. It was kinda cold outside, so I—before it got night time, I had stopped—I knew where I had left my jacket, so I went and got my jacket and left. I went in there, like, three minutes, they don’t stay there no more.
Det. Rocky Gregory: That’s okay.
Carla Raines: It was on Twentieth Street and Everest. I mean, uh, uh uh, what’s that street, not Everest, uh, the next street from Everest. But when I—so I came back up Twentieth Street, walking up Everest, but it was—I was by Seventeenth, but they didn’t um… she just kind of, like, did like this, it was female, two females.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: She just did like this.
Det. Rocky Gregory: How old do you think this guy was?
Carla Raines: I’m forty four. He looked like he was…
Det. Rocky Gregory: The one over here.
Carla Raines: Over here. He look like he was probably, um, late thirties, uh, you know something like that. But like I said, he—he looked like he take care of hisself so you really could guess his age and you could be wrong. That he was uh, younger, but then again, his age, he looked like one of them type where his age, he could have been older, but you could st—guess that he be young, cause he took care—he look like he take care of hisself.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Any other time you can think of?
Carla Raines: Unh uh. That was the only time.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Nothing further?
Carla Raines: Unh uh. That was the only time.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: And I have never seen that cop again. Ever. Cause usually they have the same cops coming through the neighborhood to be familiarized who’s doing what.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Right.
Carla Raines: But I have never seen that police officer again.
28:09
Det. Rocky Gregory: I’m trying to look for some other girls. Same, same type of deal. I—I don’t—they’re not in trouble. You know a Pamela Nash?
Carla Raines: I know Pam, but I don’t know where she’s at.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Yeah, I’m having a problem finding her.
Carla Raines: Cause I don’t hang out no more like I use to so it’s kinda, like, since they done since they got rid of all that stuff down that way, I don’t hang out no more. I haven’t seen Pam. I seen, uh, one time, not within the last few months though, I only seen her once, but I don’t know where she stay at.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Have you ever heard of any other girls…
Carla Raines: Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Have to do something like this?
Carla Raines: But I don’t talk—hardly talk to nobody that I used to know.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You’ve never…
Carla Raines: Unh uh.
Det. Rocky Gregory: This you said about a year ago. You said it was h—it was warm out?
Carla Raines: It was ki—no, no it was kinda—I had, uh uh, it was, it was night time. I think I had like a little bitty jacket on. I had on something. I know I had on a shirt. And he was just like, and I took everything out, which I just had my ID cause I always carry my ID in my back pocket if I don’t have my purse.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: And like I said he just had me—I just—you know, he was like ‘Well, I just need to make sure.’ So, that I took it as…
Det. Rocky Gregory: And he said it twice, really.
Carla Raines: Yeah, so for me to raise up my shirt and everything.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: For him to…
Det. Rocky Gregory: But you think it’s in—been in the last year?
Carla Raines: Yeah, cause it was, my momma was staying over there, and she just moved over here.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Do we, y-you think you can narrow down the time period?
Carla Raines: It was like, uh, was it around my birthday? No. it was—it was like, like, September, October something like that. Somewhere in like that. It was just kind of chilly, but it wasn’t cold out. But me, I have low iron, so…
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: It be, it be cold to me. But that’s the only time. I have never seen that cop again and I usually see the same ones that circle around the neighborhood that use to come through here, come down through there, you see the same ones, but I have never seen that police officer again. I have never seen him again.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Gotcha. Okay.
Carla Raines: That’s the only time.
30:02
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. I think that covers it. I-I just didn’t think I was being clear on the, on the phone when we talked…
Carla Raines:Y ou was being quite clear. But like I said, that’s the only time that I had that happen to me when I was on the south side. And he couldn’t say that I was prostituting, cause I wasn’t. I was at the gas station.
Det. Rocky Gregory: On the, on the deal?
Carla Raines: Yeah. And that’s, he exposed hisself to me. It was a black officer. He, I guess they was doing some type of sting or whatever.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Sting. Yeah, VICE sting.
Carla Raines: Yeah, and he, he exposed hisself to me [inaudible due to yawn and shuffling] like, they ride around they already be undressed and they’ll stop, like… They—I, you know, I can’t, I have real, something real bad to say when men do like that. That’s nasty. Why would you be riding around like that? You know, and, uh…
Det. Rocky Gregory: I agree.
Carla Raines: And this one guy, like I said, this one white guy he did that and turns out he just said, ‘I just want you to stand here’. I said okay. He gave me twenty dollars. Hey, [laugh] I ain’t gonna turn down no money, but he didn’t touch me, he didn’t get out of his car, I didn’t get into his car. But that, like I said, that is the only time that happened to me. I have never seen that police officer again. And I’m I been in this neighborhood for a few years and I would know if I seen him again. But I have never seen that man again.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: You know.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay. Well, uh…
Carla Raines: I hope I helped you, but like I said that’s the only time.
Det. Rocky Gregory: You did. You did. Umm… you’ll probably see something a little later on, pretty soon.
Carla Raines: Okay. Yeah.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay?
Carla Raines: Okay. Well, I’m on my way downtown, I gotta go see they hiring at the fair.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Hey, what’s a, what’s a phone number for…
Carla Raines: My mother’s number.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Which…
Carla Raines: [Redacted]
Det. Rocky Gregory: [Redacted]
Carla Raines: Mm hmm.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Okay.
Carla Raines: Yeah.
31:39
Det. Rocky Gregory: Thank you so much for meeting with me.
Carla Raines: Mm hmm. Oh yeah.
Det. Rocky Gregory: And, yes, you were a big help.
Carla Raines: Okay.
Det. Rocky Gregory: All right.
Carla Raines: That’s a shame they taking advantage of people like that.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Uh, very much.
[inaudible]
Carla Raines: Yeah, I mean he had—I mean, he was just, like, ‘I need to make sure ain’t nothing on you’ so I just, like I said, I had I felt like that’s what he was telling me, cause I mean…
Carla’s mother: [speaking over Carla] Well, they know these [inaudible] they ain’t gonna complain cause then you have to get appointments, you got to go downtown [inaudible]
Carla Raines: No, what happen is, if you, you complain about them or write them up and you be on these streets by yourself, that’s where the problem is. Yes.
Carla’s mother: They gonna jack you up.
Carla Raines: No, the thing is, they can cause problems for you. As far as, well, I can let such and su—I know where such and such is that got this house and such and su—I can put the word out on you that you doing this. Because they can have the neighborhood—the people in the neighborhood that is got them houses, they can have them do something to you by them putting the word out on you. That’s the kind of stuff that they do. That I do know.
Det. Rocky Gregory: Who’s—who’s, they…
Carla Raines: You know, like…
Carla’s mother: Just like, uh…
Carla Raines: Say, for instance, like that incident, if you report—if I can report—if I report this man for the kind of stuff that the officers will do, they allow the deal—you know how they, you know it do, it goes in the neighborhood that the dealers or, or, or the ones they can use that’s hanging out on the streets…
32:45[RECORDING STOPS ABRUPTLY]
Host: Just for clarification, this is where the recording just suddenly cuts off. I’m going to break down Carla Raines’ allegations and any evidence that does or does not support them in the next episode. But beyond that, I think this recorded interview is absolutely critical, and has implications with so many of the other encounters with alleged victims and the resulting criminal allegations. Carla Raines is so caught off guard by Detective Gregory, I truly don’t think she realizes how honest I personally believe she is being. And how, in my opinion, she clears up so much of what is actually going on on the streets of Northeast Oklahoma City. Did you catch that Detective Rocky Gregory interjected the term “Clasp and Shake”? And that accuser Raines knew exactly what he was talking about and indicates it’s something officers so routinely. Is Detective Gregory and the prosecution utilizing a well-known and accepted, yet humiliating, police procedure as a noose around Officer Holtzclaw’s neck? You’ll have to wait until next episode to hear my thoughts. In the meantime, feel free to read the entire report for yourself. You’ll notice, Oklahoma City Sex Crimes Detective Rocky Gregory doesn’t even once mention that Carla Raines denies being a victim. This is where I’m going to end this episode. I hope you’ll join me for the next.
34:19
This serialized podcast of the State of Oklahoma vs. Daniel Holtzclaw follows the timeline and perspective of the investigation, but with the scrutiny of the defense. If you’ve enjoyed this podcast, please take a moment to subscribe and give us a five star review. If you would like to know more and see many of the files used to compile this episode, please visit this season’s homepage at holtzclawtrial.com. You can also follow updates on this season’s Facebook page at In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw, or on Twitter and Instagram @HoltzclawTrial.
Bates Investigates - Season One: In Defense of Daniel Holtzclaw is researched, produced, and edited by me, Brian Bates. This has been a bug stomper production.
[child singing] Huh? [squishing sound] [laughter] Bugs!
- END -
